SAKO FACTORY CONTACT (TRG22 from spain)

[Madrid]

Hi, im spanish,i live in madrid/barcelona, sorry but my English is not good and my DANISH is worse.[] and SWEDISH

I have a rifle sako trg22 (green, .308W) serial number 444xxx.

[?]I am looking (NEED) the measure of Factory Headspace Dimensions (CHAMBER HEADSPACE).

I measure with my rcbs precision mic but http://glarp.atk.com/2004_IRL/RCBS/pages...%20Mic.htm I am not sure that the data that im obtaing. In the manual of my rifle doesn't explain anything about this.

I'm trying to determinate the headspace with rcbs mic and i'm finding some difficulties.

1.- I choose some cases getting from NORMA DIAMOND LINE HPBT 168 grains after shooting with my sako trg22 .308 rifle and I measure the level (or the value) with the headspace nut.The result that I obtain is -0,002.Because of the "dimension A" is 1,6300 / 1,6400, I think then that the obtain result means that my headspace is 1,6280. But this data is lower than the ANSI / SAAMI measure. How it is possible? do you think that I am crazy?[?][?]

I want that sako explains the data of the camera of my rifle, or at least to the specifications of it manufactures

This is the cuestion.

Thanks a lot

Felix

===================
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

[dravis]

Hi "madrid"

You have NO problem!

A Sako TRG22 i s a precision rifle , and is most likely made with a "target" chamber, this easily explains the slightly shorter headspace value, and also the fact that it is shorter than SAAMI standard, however it should not be shorter than SAAMI "minimum" since this could create problems with ammo "binding" in the chamber.

I see no reason to worry, since your rifle shoots the Norma Match Ammo with no problems?

Hilsner
Dravis aka:FMJ
"Sapere Aude: Dare to KNOW!" Nu med .376Steyr

[Madrid]

Dravis thank you for your help [:X]

but i need a contact with factory of sako ( i´m looking the FACTORY headspace dimensions)

have you got any opinion, or any insult or maybe Am I crazy??[:o)]

===================
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

[kluden]

Hello Madrid.
To my understanding, You think this is a Swedish site.....?
....It is Danish, and our Swedish is bad to....[][][]
Sorry that I can not help You with Your question, but i'm sure others are working on it.... Good luck!

Knæk og bræk!
-Klud.

Den der ler sidst......
Er langsom i opfattelsen!

[Madrid]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kluden

Hello Madrid.
To my understanding, You think this is a Swedish site.....?
....It is Danish, and our Swedish is bad to....[][][]
Sorry that I can not help You with Your question, but i'm sure others are working on it.... Good luck!

Knæk og bræk!
-Klud.

Den der ler sidst......
Er langsom i opfattelsen!

---

[B)][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I]

Ok., Sorry evidently the language doesn't unite us, but the shot it unites us(i hope)

===================
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

[kluden]

.... but the shot if him ago (i hope)??????

===================
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.
[/quote]
Sorry, I don't understand....?

Knæk og bræk!
-Klud.

Den der ler sidst......
Er langsom i opfattelsen!

[Høgh]

Actually this is a Swedish - or rather: Scanian - site

- the majority of users just havent realized this fact. []

[center][/center]

Assumption is the mother of all ****ups... og skånegripen er en bald eagle!...og...det er muligt, at jeg ændrer holdning, men det rokker IKKE ved det faktum, at jeg har ret! Og jo - jeg har mine problemer med det modsatte af kön....

[dravis]

Hi again "madrid"

SAKO ltd.
P.O. Box 149
Riihimäki
FIN-11101
Finland

Att: Technical inquiry

Tel: +358 19 7431
Fax: +358 19 720 446

--- How precisely does your TRG22 shoot ???

Hilsner
Dravis aka:FMJ
"Sapere Aude: Dare to KNOW!" Nu med .376Steyr

[Madrid]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dravis

Hi again "madrid"

SAKO ltd.
P.O. Box 149
Riihimäki
FIN-11101
Finland

Att: Technical inquiry

Tel: +358 19 7431
Fax: +358 19 720 446

--- How precisely does your TRG22 shoot ???

Hilsner
Dravis aka:FMJ
"Sapere Aude: Dare to KNOW!" Nu med .376Steyr

---

thanks a lott.

Trg 22 308W , norma 168 HPBT..------>1/2 MOA 200 meter

does he find good?

===================
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

[Madrid]

[u]The SAKO ANSWER[/u]
Dear Sir,

The measures of your TRG 22 are within the specifications of C.I,P.There is no possibility ,that the head space would be something else.
The priciple of firearms and cartridge measures is: The Largest possible factory cartridge must fit into the chamber of the smallest rifle chamber.Therefore both the cartridge manufacturer and the rifle manufacturer must be able to follow
the given measures and the industrial tolerances.
Thus, when you chamber a new factory cartridge, it MUST BE A LITTLE LOOSE in the chamber.The tolerances are so small,
that a well manufactured rifle and a well made cartridge will produce a reasonably good accuracy.
However, when the cartridge is fired in the chamber, the pressure inside the case will cause the case to swell into
the actual dimensions of the chamber of YOUR RIFLE.
If you want to reload the case, and want to get still better accuracy, DO NOT USE A FULL LENGTH RESIZING TOOL!
Use a rezizing die that only resizes the neck of the case. This way, you have a Custom fitted tight cartridge that
shows no head space at all! Naturally, this may not fit into a chamber of another rifle. Do not mix these cases with
any other.
To get a really well made reload, you might get an advantage, if you purchase a set of Redding type S bushing match Neck Die Set , item number 38155(catagog tells the cost is USD 207,-- See their Website .http://www.redding-reloading.com
When you reload, the other things like: high quality cases, good resizing tools, trimmer, quality primers(I use RWS 5341)
and powder:Vihtavuori N 140 or 150, Good match bullets: Sierra 168 grs Matchking or Lapua 167grs Scenar.
A very important thing in reloading is to find the OAL(overall legth) of the realoaded cartridge, that the rifle "likes".
There are differences here, depending of the primer,powder,powder load and the bullet. For example there are 2 different
Lapua Scenars available: the normal GB422, HPBT, and the molycoated GB422 CHPBT. These require a different powder load
due to the lower barrel friction of the coated one.
Have also a look at: http://www.vihtavuori.fi and http://www.lapua.com

Best regards
SAKO
Product Manager

===================
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

[Madrid]

NEW QUESTION FROM SAKO

Dear Sir,

Thank you very much for your answer and your kindness for the
explanations you have sent to me.

It is true everything you say. However I get confused when the useful RCBS PRECISION MIC gives me ?3 below measurements. Never before an useful RCBS has provided me with so bad information. I can?t understand this point.

Could it be possible for you to provide me with the CIP measures of my chamber? I can?t find it on any website. It would be very useful to reconstruct and identify the real image of my chamber with its contour heights and measures (perhaps in an autocad file?)

Would it be posible to know the maximum size of the OAL, according to the manufacturing measures, to calculate the freebore? I know that it can be calculated with a wire put in through the gun or with a cartridge, and that the freebore changes depending on the
characteristics of the headspace.

Now again many thanks and should you need anything from me please
feel free to contact me.

Best regards

Felix
===========================

CAN HELP ME????

Thanks from lat 40,4 long-3,68333[8D][8D][8D]

===================
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

[Madrid]

[V]The last SAKO reply[V]

Dear Mr. ,

I do not understand ,why you try to compare some measurements with SAAMI or ANSI measures, as our rifle is not made according to these. Your rifle has been proof shot with 2 overpressure proof cartridges and after this, the head space has been verified to be right.It is measured with 2 gauges; go and no-go. The bolt does not close on the no-go.The head space of a 308Win is measured from a surface in the chamber "shoulder" to the surface of the bolt, when the bolt handle has been turned down.
TRG is a precision weapon. The measures of the barrel are tighter than in a hunting weapon. You do not have to be worried.
Do not , by any means try to change anything in the bolt locking lugs!
What comes to the freebore or lead, the CIP does not define that. You can pretty easily find out the max OAL of the cartridge.
Just make one "cartridge" without primer and powder,Seat the bullet very far out(too long), hold the bullet inside a candle flame to get it sooted with fine black color. Then try to chamber this trial cartridge.Close the bolt on it. When you open the bolt, you can see the marks of rifling on the frontal part of the bullet. Now you can measure the length of these marks.
Shorten the try cartridge by the same measure , and you will get a cartridge, that is maximum OAL . Noto, that when different bullets have different ogives, this must be done for each bullet type separately.
Notice also, that the maximum nominal OAL of a .308Win. cartridge is defined to be 71,12 mm, but this is not long enoug to let the bullet to reach the beginning of the rifling.If you want to make a catridge, that has the bullet seated more out, thus giving a longer OAL, you will have to shoot these one at a time, because the probably will not feed from the magazine.

Best regards
Sako
Product Manager

__________________________________________________________
[?][?][?]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Madrid

NEW QUESTION FROM SAKO

Dear Sir,

Thank you very much for your answer and your kindness for the
explanations you have sent to me.

[?][?][?]Could [b]it be possible for you to provide me with the CIP measures of my chamber? I can?t find it on any website. It would be very useful to reconstruct and identify the real image of my chamber with its contour heights and measures (perhaps in an autocad file?)[/b][?][?][?]

---

[V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V][V]

Guys without a good answer I return to the south[8D],
Thanks []

email chispun@telefonica.net
===================
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

[dravis]

Hi "madrid"

I actually think that SAKO has gone a long way to try to help you!!
Sako could probably supply you with a STANDARD CIP chamber drawing of the .308 chamber, but what would be the point of that? It will be very close to your chamber, but it will NOT be precisely the same.

Your rifle is made according to C.I.P "minimum chamber" dimensions
but there is a manufacturing tolerance that has to be taken into account. C.I.P minimum chamber headspace is slightly smaller than SAAMI minimum, if I remember correctly.

Exact chamber dimensions for YOUR particular rifle can only be found by making a "Chamber-Cast" using a special metal-alloy called "cerro-safe"
This metal has a well-defined shrinking ratio, so that when the cast is measured a certain time after it has been removed from the chamber, the dimensions can be calculated from the measurements made of the chamber-cast. THEN you could make a precise drawing of YOUR chamber.

The RCBS "precision mic" is NOT an absolutely precise instrument, it is actually just a "comparator"
To SET the RCBS "precision mic" to "zero" you would need a ".308-GO-headspace gauge" only THEN is the RCBS a true "precision instrument"

Personally I think you are making a lot of fuss about something that you do not really need to worry about..

If your rifle shoots well, even with factory match ammo, then using the very sound advice fro m Sako about neck-sizing, should enable you to get even better precision from your TRG22.

Good luck!!

Hilsner
Dravis aka:FMJ
"Sapere Aude: Dare to KNOW!" Nu med .376Steyr

[Madrid]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dravis

...Personally I think you are making a lot of fuss about something that you do not really need to worry about..

If your rifle shoots well, even with factory match ammo, then using the very sound advice fro m Sako about neck-sizing, should enable you to get even better precision from your TRG22.

---

.... but that problem is that I know what I need...?[?]

Personally I think each opinion is as the nose, each man has his[

No problem.Thank you to tell me what I need.

Thanks and best regards from spain[8D]

===================
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

[Claxel]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kluden

===================
Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

---

Sorry, I don't understand....?

Knæk og bræk!
-Klud.

Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum = Hvis du ønsker fred, så forbered dig på krig ¿

/Clax

[Madrid]

(LATIN) Sic vis pacem, para bellum = If you want peace, prepare for war".

[kluden]

Clax, du fejlciterer mig..... Det var ikke citatet jeg ikke forstod. Men det forstod jeg nu heller ikke.....Så blev jeg da også lidt klogere idag[]

Knæk og bræk!
-Klud.

Den der ler sidst......
Er langsom i opfattelsen!

[ujensen]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Høgh

Actually this is a Swedish - or rather: Scanian - site

- the majority of users just havent realized this fact. []

---

Sjowt med sådan et svensk/skandinavisk site, hvor stort set al kommunikation, og ihvertfald det som moderatorne skriver er på dansk [].

Uffe

Hellere stor oplevelse end stor opsats.- Men gerne begge!